Comments on: Car Dealers Who Break The NHTSA CARS Rules

By: neeme

neeme — Thu, 27 Aug 2009 20:39:25 +0000

In Minnesota, my dealer has refused to submit my new vehicle title until they get paid. The salesperson said if I get cited to bring the ticket in and they will pay it. Others in the forum have said the same. I paid in full without a loan, my three week temp tag expired a week ago, and the new vehicle is parked idle without plates in my garage. I wonder if the state minds the dealer holding onto my $2,000 of paid sales tax and registration fees. Technically I own nothing right now, neither old nor new. Help!
(please forgive the my multiple forum cross posting)

By: am

am — Thu, 27 Aug 2009 17:52:37 +0000

I read the comments below- appears no answers are given to people’s plentiful and persistent questions. Perhaps it simply serves as a way to vent versus solve anything. Would a dealer’s misuse of the CARS program by withholding the new car, not taking the old car (except the title), not taking the customer’s money, only a deposit (what are they thinking) UNLESS the customer signs an agreement to pay $4500 prior to the government paying the dealer-would all that cancel the deal-hurting the buyer AGAIN-is that the bit that prevents people from reporting dealers? It has my attention. I would like my new car, for the dealer to take my old car (they have my signed title but will not physically take the junker or let me pay my part of the deal( I will pay cash). This is crazy, irritating and so wrong!

By: john perrucci

john perrucci — Thu, 27 Aug 2009 00:27:04 +0000

I bought a car from flemington mazda on july 31st. Here it is august 26 and I still have no car. Almost a month later. My car needed work so it had to be dropped off at the dealer so It ran and would still qualify. I didn’t want to repair a car that was going to be disabled. Basically I’ve been left to scrounge for rides to work andwherever I needed to go . I feel like I am15 again. Not only has this left me stranded without a car it took away some of my dignity. I called the cars hot line about two weeks ago and they haven’t done anything but taken my information. At this point I don’t know what to do other than wait and hope I have a car sometime this year.

By: DBW in CT

DBW in CT — Wed, 26 Aug 2009 17:34:52 +0000

Well, here I am again folks. I knew it wasn’t going to go smoothly. The last time I commented was August 12th or so saying I finally received my car from the dealer, only with dealer plates and not the transfer of my plates. Well, today those dealer plates expired and of course the dealer called. They are ready to put my plates on the car and the registration will be in my name, BUT, I’ll have to sign a waiver!! This waiver has nothing to do with money, it only is to say if the Gov’t changes their policies, requirements, etc., I will be responsible for following those within 48 hours. I told the dealer No flipping way!!! He told me that per the owner, if I don’t sign it the deal is off. The deal is done – I’ve made my first payment, they cashed my check a month ago, etc. It is their fault they sat on registering my car for the past two weeks. I’m so tired of this. What to do now??? I again contacted our AG’s office and actually spoke to an investigator specifically put in place because of so many issues with the program and he said no way. Our congressman also agrees. My next call is to DMV enforcement. My problem is I also have to work and this takes up much too much time. I wish it would all just go away. I love my new car but such headaches!

By: Anthony

Anthony — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 01:08:58 +0000

I am getting pushed around by a dealer in Charleston, SC. This dealer stated to me Saturday evening when I signed all the paper work for the car that I could not take the new car home because they had to make sure they get paid…… BULLCRAP…. Unfortunately the dealer has control as I did not have time when they told me this to go to another dealership. This dealership is in violation of the law and I intend on sticking it to them!

By: JACK BENVENISTE

JACK BENVENISTE — Sun, 23 Aug 2009 19:01:24 +0000

I tried to purchase a car at Maroone Toyota (Auto Natiion) in South Florida. I ordered a vehicle and gave a $500 deposit and agreeing to pay the balance when the car was ready for pickup . When I was paying off the car I was told that if the US government did not pay the dealer that I would have to pay the $4500. I was also told that the dealer would not only not sell me the car unless I signed their agreement and that they would not release the title until they are paid in full. I have bought two cars from this dealership but I cannot see myself purchasing another vehicle there. BEWARE.

By: Indy

Indy — Thu, 20 Aug 2009 16:48:09 +0000

Susan,

Try contacting your state’s DMV enforcement division and see what they say.

By: susan

susan — Thu, 20 Aug 2009 16:09:27 +0000

What can I do about the kia dealership that is not sending me the title documents, but has cashed my check for the vehicle. The title documentation is being held until they receive the rebate. I have one week left before I must register the vehicle and pay the sales tax.

If they wouldn’t have cashed my check, I wouldn’t have such a gripe, but they did. so, where’s my title?

By: Mark Ting

Mark Ting — Tue, 18 Aug 2009 23:17:07 +0000

Hi,

Good to see this site! I have bought a new Prius in Herb Chanmbers Toyota of Boston, MA and submit my all paperworks for the cash-for-clunker though them. They originally told me 3-4 days to get approval, and now they don’t release my new car after three weeks of waiting. The dealership tries to blame on the NHTSA agency for this but I really become the hostage. They even have cashed my check for the rest of the amount of the new car right after the new car is sold to me.

I have talked to the General Manager of the dealership and he said
only less 5% cash-for-clunker gets approved so far and my car will only be release if they get the govement approval first. Is that leagal? Please advise what I could/should do.

Thanks,
Mark.

By: Walker

Walker — Tue, 18 Aug 2009 15:41:28 +0000

If they filled out/scanned in the paperwork wrong or one thing was missing, the paperwork would have been rejected and the clock reset to a minimum of 10 days from resubmission. If the dealer is reported by anyone for not turning over any vehicles or taking clunkers prior to submission of the paperwork, that we all know is a direct violation of the rules and who knows what happens then to their deals. I have my payment book, no vehicle since signing all paperwork on 7/31 and am due to make a payment. Dealer is stonewalling, not returning calls, etc. I am now needing to find out how to save my credit rating and withhold payment from the bank, perhaps in some escrow situation, until the situation gets resolved. If I pay the bank, they will have no incentive to go after the dealer, who for all intents and purposes, falsely sent in our loan financing paperwork, received money from them and did not deliver the vehicle to their customer.

By: Crazy Ivan

Crazy Ivan — Tue, 18 Aug 2009 13:34:44 +0000

Day 21 and still no car…

My dealer told me that he is only waiting for approval to release the car, not the rebate. I am OK with this, believe it or not! (at least until the payment book shows up in the mail-box, then my feelings will probably change pretty quickly!!!) What have people experienced as a turn-around time for getting an approval or a rejection. We had all of our paperwork signed and ready to submit on July 29 but our submission didn’t make it into the system until July 30. How long of a wait time should we be expecting for ANY type of reply from NHTSA, whether it be a rejection or an acceptance?

By: JME

JME — Mon, 17 Aug 2009 17:46:27 +0000

Tony,

I sell only referrals at my dealer. I do online advertising and different marketing. But we did have a great weekend here. Thanks for the support.

Side note.. I do see where you are going with the doctors analogy. But they get a pre-approved or qualified customer in and do the work or whatever is done. Now say the insurance company does not pay. Who is responsible? hmmmmmm

And that is by no means saying I think the consumer should be held accountable for this amount. But they should understand why the dealer wants to get approval before releasing the cars.. We do not need the said cash to be in hand. Just the approval. That would of made all the difference in the world with this program.

I do hope you all have your cars by now!

By: Tony

Tony — Sat, 15 Aug 2009 23:28:54 +0000

Don said … actually this is a regular business practice. It’s called an insurance pre-authorization.

Preauthorization, not prepayment. That is, the patient does not have to wait until payment is actually in the hands of the service provider to reap the benefit. No different than C4C. In fact, if we use this analogy, C4C goes a step further and puts the onus of transaction eligibility determination on the dealer (doctor). The dealer has “every reason” (language from Final Ruling) to reject any transaction that doesn’t pass the sniff test. The dealer in essence conducts their own “pre authorization” which is then approved by Citigroup, or not.

Regardless, we both can agree that a prompt turnaround time from submission to approval followed by payment to dealer in short order would build the confidence required for most dealers to play by the rules. Hopefully this is just around the corner. In fact I am sure this operation will eventually run like clockwork … right about the time when funds are exhausted.

Good luck with your Grand Caravan. Had my Blazer not qualified, I just might have made you an offer so I could be be prepared for the next iteration of this marvelous program.

Best to you, Don.

Hey JME, did you knock ‘em dead today?

By: Don

Don — Sat, 15 Aug 2009 18:28:19 +0000

Tony says:
August 15, 2009 at 11:43 am

“Hey guys, when you go to get a prescription filled, or go see a doctor, does the provider take your insurance card (or Medicaid or Medicare card) and phone the insurer (or Social Security office) demanding payment immediately? My doctor verifies active insurance coverage, immediately grabs the copayment from me, PROVIDES THE SERVICE, and bills the insurer for the balance. Then they WAIT to be paid.”

Tony, You refer to an established system where doctors are familar with the insurance company’s and you have been pre-introduced by showing your insurance card at the doctor’s office. In essence you have a pre-approval to have services rendered.
_______
Can a health care provider decide to make up their own rules by submitting a claim for services that have yet to be rendered…

Tony, actually this is a regular business practice. It’s called an insurance pre-authorization. On questionable ‘services rendered’ areas, unless the end consumer wants to be held liable for the bill, the end consumer waits for the pre-authorization approval.
_________
Now Don, if your previously written sentence (pasted above) read: the NHTSA should have made arrangement to provide “approvals” immediately, I might agree with you. JME said it well in his post immediately below … “a shorter time for turn around to approve the funding… Why could they not have a 24-48 hour turn around after they receive payment to approve a deal? Even 72 hours.. Anyone would be willing to wait that amount of time for there new car. That is acceptable.”

Tony, I would agree!
______

It is my understanding that the workforce handling dealer claims for dealer rebates is about to triple. This will shorten the authorization window considerably. Dealers will soon be awash in cash and everything will be right in their world.

Tony, That’s great because the 3 million is probably nearing it’s end.
______

I do buy my cars from dealers, I don’t have to live with or marry them.

Tony, My view is buying a car is not like buying a coffee pot. These days, cars are very complicated pieces of equipment. Warranties extend out into a number a years. I’d like to build a good relationship with my dealer, when it’s my time to buy.
___________
I don’t sell cars but if I did, and I knew it was going to be 30 days before I see my $4.5K then I would simply build the $20 into the price of every new vehicle sold.

Tony, I don’t sell cars either. But if I did, I see the issue as, this is a new program with no track record. 10 days becomes 20, 20 becomes thirty, 30 becomes? There’s nothing like being a nationwide test market. Thanks for (hopefully) paving the way for me at a later date.
__________
Get out there JME and sell, sell, sell. You too Don. Best to you both.

Tony, Yep, I’ve been trying to sell my EPA rated 19MPG 2000 Dodge Grand Caravan. I’ve been letting people know that my 2000 is much more fuel efficient than the exact same EPA rated 18MPG 1998, 1999,—-, 2001, 2002 models. So buy this highly EPA rated 2000 Grand Caravan now and a after a year of ownership and a new C4C program surfaces, with new guidelines, this vehicle could be the next ticket to clunker Euphoria! ;~)

By: eileen

eileen — Sat, 15 Aug 2009 16:13:26 +0000

Variation on the same theme of not releasing the new car: Now my dealership has had my fully driveable clunker that would have gotten close to $4K as a trade-in without cash4clunkers, and let us drive off the lot with our new car. They got full registration docs and insurance docs going back 2 years, so there should be no probs getting it processed. But they aren’t titling the new car to us and say that they won’t til C4C gives them the full 4500 credit for our car. We paid cash plus the clunker, and they made us sign a promissory note for the 4500, but are in no hurry to process the C4C so that we no longer owe $4500. And we don’t own the new car, even tho they have had our money for 2 weeks, because it isn’t registered yet. Shady shady shady. They know all the tricks and make up more as they go along.

By: JME

JME — Sat, 15 Aug 2009 15:54:46 +0000

Tony,

Thank you very much! And we are out here selling. As far as monies are concerned.. We have deals and have been paid on the customers end. Just waiting for the gov. Hope to start having funds start trickling in this week.. FINGERS CROSSED. lol.

By: Tony

Tony — Sat, 15 Aug 2009 15:43:50 +0000

My friends Don and (possibly) JME subscribe to the notion that, as Don wrote: If the NHTSA expected the dealers to release cars immediately then the NHTSA should have made arrangements to fund the rebates immediately.

Hey guys, when you go to get a prescription filled, or go see a doctor, does the provider take your insurance card (or Medicaid or Medicare card) and phone the insurer (or Social Security office) demanding payment immediately? My doctor verifies active insurance coverage, immediately grabs the copayment from me, PROVIDES THE SERVICE, and bills the insurer for the balance. Then they WAIT to be paid.

Does a health care provider have the option not to participate with insurance companies or accept public health insurance? Of course. Can a health care provider decide to make up their own rules by submitting a claim for services that have yet to be rendered and withholding these services until AFTER payment is made by insurance company or Medicaid/Medicare? Sure, if they want to go to jail.

Now Don, if your previously written sentence (pasted above) read: the NHTSA should have made arrangement to provide “approvals” immediately, I might agree with you. JME said it well in his post immediately below … “a shorter time for turn around to approve the funding… Why could they not have a 24-48 hour turn around after they receive payment to approve a deal? Even 72 hours.. Anyone would be willing to wait that amount of time for there new car. That is acceptable.”

I agree … and help is on the way.

JME wrote: “We have about 60 cars delivered through this program as of right now. With not a cent paid.” Oh no? Have not the customers paid at minimum, a deposit, if not their end in full? I paid IN FULL and still had to wait a week until NYS Attorney General chest thumped AND Cars.gov website CLEARLY stated that dealer MUST release car. So, are you saying JME that your boss has not one cent from any of the 60 consumers? C’mon.

JME is concerned that people will have “a negative look at all dealers.” I can’t speak for all people. For me, business is business. Next time I am in the market for a car, I will shop every dealer in town until I get a deal that I can live with. That includes my current C4C dealer. I do buy my cars from dealers, I don’t have to live with or marry them.

JME does not understand how anyone can think it is fair for a dealer to be on the hook for the $3,500-$4,500. My response to my dealer … sixty-three cents a day. That’s the float on $4.5 at 5%. I looked him in the eye and told him he was risking a lifelong customer for .63 per day. I don’t sell cars but if I did, and I knew it was going to be 30 days before I see my $4.5K then I would simply build the $20 into the price of every new vehicle sold.

JDP wrote: “I do think what we’re dealing with here is a body of businessmen who are not prepared to cooperate with the government”

My hope is that the government buries one …just one… offender/dealer who is flagrantly thumbing their nose at the final ruling by holding hostage new vehicles paid IN FULL by the customer. Other dealers would take note and fall in line. The bitter taste of compliance will be more than offset by the sweet smell of 3 billion dollars received days (or yes, weeks) later. Those that are not in compliance should be precluded from future participation in any government sponsored schemes and not allowed to have the customer attracting CARS logo on their websites.

If you are a dealer like JME’s boss and are playing by the rules (which I believe many finally are), then you have nothing to worry about. Just make sure your work is meticulous (vast majority of rejections are dealer errors), your transactions are air tight, and when the money starts rolling into your account, you will soon forget all the aggravation associated with this program.

Get out there JME and sell, sell, sell. You too Don. Best to you both.

BTW, my dealer just called. They never had me sign my title so my submission (opps, I mean their submission) got rejected. I will happily drive there first thing Monday morning in my new car and do whatever I need to do to help them get their money.

By: JME

JME — Sat, 15 Aug 2009 14:47:34 +0000

Tony,

Now where I understand that it is the overall view to not care about the dealer here… But just in business. You get paid then deliver. I am not saying that every dealer out there is doing the right thing. We are delivering the new cars to our customers. It is not there fault and should not have the burden. But FACT. We have about 60 cars delivered through this program as of right now. With not a cent paid. They are in the “pipeline” I am not the owner of this organization but I can only imagine smaller dealer groups that can not handle that type of money being held up..

As far as the paperwork issues. From what I do know we sent in our “first round” of submits. All correct info in the package to be emailed in after scanning. They did not know how to open the attachment with our submission. So we had to re-format into another type of attachment (adobe) and re-submit. Now you would think this might take a priority due to already waiting 10 days to find out its not acceptable… But no. You are put back in the 10 day waiting. So I am just and have been saying this program seems to be designed to use others money for now. When as you stated.. The dealer should release the car when paid in full. We are not paid in full until this program accepts the deal. This should of had more thought from the admin side before rolling out. Yes they had 30 days to put this program together.. Definitely not enough time to properly see how this would play out. I do think the idea of this program is great!

Maybe you have had a bad experience at a dealer… But I do not understand how anyone can think it is fair for a dealer to be on the hook for the $3,500-$4,500. And as of right now that is truly the case. Where there should not of been a shorter time for turn around to approve the funding. We have to reg a car for new plates for them to take the car. We have 7 days on a transfer. Why could they not have a 24-48 hour turn around after they receive payment to approve a deal? Even 72 hours.. Anyone would be willing to wait that amount of time for there new car. That is acceptable. To say 10 days? I do not believe that is at all.

As far as changes go… The program “opened” on the first. Yes the website and other places said to wait til the “official” rules where in place. We were supposed to try to sign up. And the web site was up. Mpg listed where changed on the 24th. The program rules did not come out til the 27th. Dealers could not sign up til this date either. The program that was supposed to start on the 1st.. was then the 24th.. then pushed off til the 27 due to the 24th being a friday and I guess someone thought it better to start on a monday. 78 cars that were before eligible where not on the 25th that where on the 23rd.(they changed MPG on there site on the 24th) So yes there have been changes to this program. Many in fact. Yes its allot of money but I will continue to say I do not understand where it is the Dealerships responsibility to guarantee this money.

As far as you say you do not feel any sympathy for a dealer trying to protect himself.. That’s bad.. So to think its ok to let your friend borrow $200,000 in hopes to get it back… Because that is how I would define this. The Gov ( the dealers friend here) is basically borrowing the dealers money until refunded. As long as all goes well. So play by there rules cross your fingers the money doesn’t run out before all your deals are refunded. And wait… Hey.. We are doing just that.

I guess in all I feel that I am reading allot of negative about dealers in this and that is what hits me most.. I hope that at the end of this that people do not have a negative look at all dealers. I happen to work for a great one. That is able to put these cars out on the road. As the rules and guidelines are wrinkled out. I am just seeing a bigger picture that this program that was put together buy people not in the car business and may not of understood some things. But these are things that I would think are normal business procedures.

Who knows.. Maybe I am wrong to think this way. $3 Billion Dollars is a lot of money to ask to borrow for 10 days. No matter how many people it gets out into the market. And to think it will be acceptable for a dealer to be responsible for the $3,500-$4,500 if something is to go “wrong??” To me is just wrong.

I personally am sorry to any consumer out there that feels like they have been put out by this program or any dealer.

Again,

Concerned Salesman.

By: Lee

Lee — Sat, 15 Aug 2009 10:34:25 +0000

I should have added to the last post the car was held by the dealer for three weeks and my first payment is already due in 10 days-GRRRRRR THey told me to get financing ASAP so I got my check the next day and have been holding it since- Could have taken my loan yesterday-Whatever Thankfully I have my new car

By: Lee

Lee — Sat, 15 Aug 2009 10:31:56 +0000

Dealer called on Wednesday and I picked up my car last night woo hoo!!

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By: JDP

JDP — Sat, 15 Aug 2009 03:15:43 +0000

Tony: you say, “Nothing has changed as it relates to dealer obligation to release new car upon consumer payment in full (minus dealer’s rebate). That was the intent from the inception.”

Now I feel that the dealership has me over a barrel. I’ve called several times and nicely asked for a progress report, and they only “reassured” me that I’m “next in line.” Yet there is no explanation about how come other dealers have been able to release the cars next day.

This is the first time I’ve even heard about this rule–certainly not from the dealership!

It doesn’t help for the hot-line to be putting out that there is a ten-plus day wait, since the dealers use this to stall on letting you take the car. I suspect the ten-day wait is for the dealer to get his money, not for me to take my car.

I do think what we’re dealing with here is a body of businessmen who are not prepared to cooperate with the government because of the poisonous anti-government atmosphere that is being spread around over anything this Administration might be doing.

I can see how dealerships would want to have the money in hand before letting a car go off the lot. But I and others have PAID FOR these cars and we are now facing loan and insurance payments, WITHOUT THE CAR!

The program would work beautifully–and does–when everyone just observes the rules, instead of tinkering with it.

By: dawnice

dawnice — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 23:39:18 +0000

Subaru Stamford in CT has been holding our car since we put down a deposit in June. It just keeps telling us one story after another. We found out after we submitted all the paperwork on 7/31 (which is only after constantly calling to make them even take our paperwork), that they did not submit the paperwork to the government until 8/5. Then earlier this week, we were told that they’ve got approvals coming through already and cars are being delivered, we just have to wait. Fast forward to a couple of days later, we were told by the exact same dealership that no car from Subaru Stamford has been approved and none has been delivered. In addition, they showed us an email, which they claim is from NHTSA, saying that NHTSA has reverse its decision and is now telling the dealers to keep the cars until they get approval from the government.

The CARS program definitely has its flaws, but the dealership should just be honest about what it’s doing and communicate with its customers. It’s sad that the dealership can’t even keep its own story straight internally. Even if they are telling us the truth sometimes, how can I believe anything they say at all.

I certainly will never shop at Subaru Stamford again. It’s so unfortunate that one dealership could make what is supposed to be an exciting car buying experience so horrible.

By: Matthew Cullen

Matthew Cullen — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 23:21:27 +0000

Its a problem with the Oracle companies leg of this I heard from my dealer.

By: Linda

Linda — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 22:04:13 +0000

I signed final paperwork and had available all documents to turn in my clunker for my new vehicle on 7/31/09. Was sent away in my old car, to be called in couple of days after verfication was received through the CARS computer submission process. Been calling the dealer ever since. They stopped being available to speak to me after the clarification of the intent of the rules came out on cars.gov on Weds 8/13. I’ve emailed the CT atty general’s office twice since Tuesday and was told today on the phone that it would be addressed sooner if I wrote, so off goes a letter. I’ve called NHTSA hotline on 8/14 to report my unfulfilled transaction with this dealer, and the bank which the dealer financed me through because I will owe them a car payment in a week and a half, to put them on notice that the deal has not been lived up to on the dealer’s end (they’ve noted my comments but say there is nothing they can do). I’ve called the Ford Motor company in Michigan, who was quite alarmed, got the dealer on the phone while I was on hold, and assured me that my dealer would be calling me back in a couple of minutes to discuss getting me my vehicle. that was over 26 hours ago. I called WTNH and left a voice message a day ago. Called the CT Department of Banking, Consumer Credit Line, who said this was a federal problem and they could not help. I’ve had an attorney trying to reach the dealer since 12:00 p.m. today; he continues to get disconnected, forwarded and hung up on, etc. What’s left to do? I am told that I can call the DMV and there is a Dealers & Repairs division and they will have to investigate my claim. Also I can apparently call the bank again, be sure to mention fraud, and cite the “Fair Credit Reporting Act” and state that I will hold my payments in abeyance until the matter is resolved. I’m concerned about my own credit history taking a bath in all of this. Do I know how to spend my vacation time, or what!

By: Pamela

Pamela — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 21:55:56 +0000

Tom…

Very interesting, we are using Gates GMC, I advise everyone NOT to go there. Very uncooperative. Wanted to buy a GMC, not working out very well. Wondering if we will ever get the vehicle at this point. Very shady, today telling me there was litigation underway with NADA about it. Nothing I heard and the hotline said that was garbage. I told the salesperson: “how can they litigate something that was in the rule in the first place?” so we shall see. Turned them in on the hotline.Disgusted at this point and sickened over the whole deal.

By: Tom

Tom — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 21:47:14 +0000

Got the same run around at Toyota of Colchester. Waited for a few days..the salesman was dragging his feet. He told me stories of how we would have to wait for the $4500 dollars etc.etc.
Really shady. I don’t recomend them.
I went to Gengras and bought a Cobalt instead. Went in during lunch and came back the same day to pick up and drive away my new Cobalt. They were great.

By: Pamela

Pamela — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 21:06:43 +0000

Lets see, I contacted by email, Gov Rell’s office, Sen. Dodds office, Sen Liebermans Office, Sen Harry Reids Office, President Obamas Office, 2 TV Stations WFSB & WTNH, 1 local newspaper and called the hotline. Finally got through on the hotline, they took my name, phone number and the name of the dealership. Still no vehicle. Even after speaking with the Dealership and reminding them of what it says they are supposed to do on the cars.gov website, they refuse to deliver the deal.

By: tony

tony — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 19:52:41 +0000

JME: You stated “funds coming slow.” That is to be expected. The program started July 27, just 18 days ago. Program planners had only 30 days to piece this thing together. Three billion is a lot of money. Kinks are being ironed out. Be patient.

As for the program changing, other than the directive allowing dealers to refrain from desroying vehicles until AFTER approval received, changes have been few and minor. Nothing has changed as it relates to dealer obligation to release new car upon consumer payment in full (minus dealer’s rebate). That was the intent from the inception.

You claim that deals being rejected with all correct info in place? Please elaborate. There is no incentive for Citigroup to reject an application that is fully eligible. There is room for error on both ends.

Dealers will sell hundreds of thousands of new cars as a direct result of this program. In addition, thousands of consumers who are not eligible for the program are being driven to dealerships nationwide as a result of all of the hype. I don’t have an ounce of sympathy for a dealer trying to “protect” himself from the onslaught of billions upon billions of new money. Follow the rules, make sure the transactions qualify, and the money will follow. This is not rocket science.

By: Don

Don — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 19:51:38 +0000

@Tony, Congrats on picking up your vehicle……and thanks for the kind words.

@JME, One of the issues that I see that really mucked up the waters in this CARS program was the NHTSA backlog of approvals, and then expecting dealers to release cars prior to approval. How backwards is that? Funding approvals first, then release of the goods, it’s basic business economics 101.

If the NHTSA expected the dealers to release cars immediately then the NHTSA should have made arrangements to fund the rebates immediately. NHTSA should of kept the basic rules of business in mind when writing the rules. I’ve read this week that some dealer groups have between 1.5 – 2.0 million dollars tied up in CARS rebates waiting for approvals. Wow.

I hope it works out well for all involved.

By: JME

JME — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 19:22:42 +0000

Tony,

I do hope you understand the dealer I do work for is putting these cars on the road. Registration and all. Its just frustrating that the program keeps changing and funds are coming to the dealer very very slowly.. And deals are being rejected. With all correct info in place. All I am and was trying to say is that it is not a dealers fault trying to protect itself… As would anyone in this situation. But I am glad that all worked out and you are in your new car! And I do not speak for all dealers.. Just from what I do know and see at my own.

By: Matthew Cullen

Matthew Cullen — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 18:37:49 +0000

addendum…. please provide links or phone contacts

By: Matthew Cullen

Matthew Cullen — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 18:36:46 +0000

I was just on the line with Chevy Customer Assistance. CALL YOUR MANUFACTURER don’t know why I haven’t seen more info like this.

They called the dealership and found out that my process had been rejected and resubmitted. The dealership originally told me that everything was fine and it hadn’t been rejected. caught them in a lie i did. small potatoes but a lie and ultimately the reason nothing has added up i still don’t trust any one source.

what i was JUST told is that there was a failure on oracles part. Oracle made a change to the system that was supposedly going to provide “instant approval”. From what I’m told EVERYBODY in the system up to that point had be inadvertently rejected by a bug injected by the change.

can anybody substantiate this?

By: tony

tony — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 16:10:18 +0000

Stanley, Ohio Greg, Indy, Don, LinnyC: THANKS for your wisdom and support. Wednesday my phone rang just hours after CARS.gov home page updated showing the “NEW” rules (Ha, Ha, Ha I’m beginning to sound like my car dealer now). My dealer left message saying, “Mr. Tony, I think we made enough interest from holding on to your money, come down today and get your new car.” I’m glad after what he and I went through (it was not pretty, he lost his cool) he still has a sense of humor. I called him back and told him under no circumstances was I going to make yet another trip to his dealership only to be asked to sign a contingency agreement holding me responsible should they continue to be unable to correctly data enter VIN numbers and scan various documents correctly. I know my end of the deal (1+ year ownership, registration, insurance, etc.) is air tight. He said, your signature on the certification is good enough. As much as I wanted to get into it with him again about how it was ALWAYS good enough, I bit my tongue and headed over to his office.

Sure enough, I drove off with my brand new car and was not asked to sign anything other than standard motor vehicle forms.

I live in NYS. Between NYS Attorney General cease & desist order sent to many dealers earlier this week who were misleading consumers around CARS eligibility AND the clarity found on CARS.gov website Wednesday, my guess it that most dealers holding new cars hostage in NYS began to feel a bit uncomfortable. And rightfully so. History shows the chest thumping nature of previous NYS Attorneys General (eg, Spitzer) with more grand political aspirations. Works for me. Cuomo has my vote should he opt to seek higher office.

I’ll keep checking in here to see how this thing plays out for others. If you are in NYS, and are still getting jerked around, please don’t hesitate to chime in here.

By: JME

JME — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 16:09:04 +0000

This is a heartfelt apology to the consumers out there… Because in all you are the ones that are suffering over this program. Its it a great idea YES. Was it ran as smoothly as possible. APSOLUTLY NOT! But it is not the dealers fault. And still is not. We all go to work every day to get paid.. Would you let $3,500 or $4,500 walk out the door not knowing if you are on the hook for it? Never mind that there are dealers with 30-40 of these cars sold. So if that dealer sold 40 of these cars and the government rejects these deals… What is it to do. Pay the $180,000.00?? No it would have to close its doors. And all the government seems to be doing is pointing fingers at dealers… I work at one. We have just about go out of the ruts of the older days in having a bad name. Why are they trying to put the blame on us??? This is not our program. Not our money… If they had a proper plan in place from the get go this would of been much better program. I am very happy that they are doing something. But.. There is no guarantee the dealer does get paid. I have seen several of these deals get rejected. And if it is a paperwork issue. (mind you we were not told what format to send the paperwork in) it goes back to the beginning stage. So submit paperwork… wait 10 days… find out your rejected because something didn’t send to them. And its not as simple as send that piece.. It is start over. I am just saying.. All in all…. That as is the dealer should be able to wait until it is funded. Just like any other deal. If there is a college grad rebate in a deal what happens? The deal is not approved until the bank contacts the college and confirms all is good. SO why is this different? Why should dealers put there money on the line for a government program. Mind you. As a dealer. We are not GM, Nissan, Ford, Toyota. We are franchises owned by people who have built up there business. I am sorry for this huge rant.. But I do not want to see this ruin reputations of dealers that have fought long and hard to get there good reputations.

Thank you!!!!

Concerned Salesman.

By: Indy

Indy — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 15:11:25 +0000

@ DBW…Congratulations on having your new car! Regarding the registration/plate transfer: Perhaps you could call the enforcement division of your state DMV, and/or your state Attorney General’s Office to see if they have any opinion about that?

That survey thing really cracks me up! Turn the tables on them, ask them HOW MUCH IT’S WORTH TO THEM TO GET YOUR GOOD GRADE, LOL. Don’t sell it cheap. :O)

By: DBW in CT

DBW in CT — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 14:11:49 +0000

We Finally have our new car!! There is still a glitch though of course. We have to drive it with the dealer plates on it. They still will not complete the transfer of plates until they receive the funds from the gov’t, but at least we have it. What should have been a happy afternoon of going to pick it up was anything but. We just wanted it over with. When we picked up the car, a manager of some sort tried to sit down with me to try and “unmuddy” the waters. I told him to just stop; I was through; I just wanted to finish and get out. He then repeated what the owner told me twice, “you have to understand, I have a survey out there”. I will certainly voice my opinion on the treatment we received, specifically from the owner of this dealer. He truly was an obnoxious, arrogant, difficult human being. My salesman was stuck in the middle.

Anyway, my heartfelt thanks to those who started this website and those that provided guidance and information, and of course those that just let me vent our frustrations. I do not think I would have made such progress without it. I wish you all the best with your CARS. Thank you. After all of this, I still believe it is a great program.

By: Debbie

Debbie — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 23:10:37 +0000

I have a $4500 qualified clunker, the dealer found the car and got it there, then calls me and says the car I want is full MSRP, and I cannot get it until the gov’t starts paying out the money. Today, they changed again and said they are no longer doing Clunkers, so my who deal is off. Now I start all over, I have to wait for the 2010 to even get the car I want, find another dealership and probably miss out on the Clunkers deal, even though I have 2 weeks of time already invested in this. Not happy with the dealer or the process.

By: Craig Schroeder

Craig Schroeder — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 15:20:17 +0000

I can see that the problems consumers are running into is mainly not the consumer’s fault. Consumer’s are frustrated. Dealer’s are frustrated. It appears that everyone is blaming the dealerships, but they are just trying to protect themselves. If they don’t get the CARS program money, they loose money. Let’s look at the real cause of the problems. It’s the government. The website was not equipped to handle the volume of dealer entrys, and was ignored by the government for 1 week. Every thing was late by the government including when a dealer could sign up, and being given the rules, and they still are changing them. Now the approvals and rejections are coming through slow as molasses. Call your legislators and complain about how poorly the government is handling this program.

By: Linda

Linda — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 12:43:37 +0000

My cash for clunker deal was the first one my dealership put in – right on day one. Dealer has it in the “sold” lot and does not want my clunker until they get their money. They’ve told me they would let me take the car only if I sign a purchase agreement that doesn’t include the cash for clunker $ and then once they get their $ they would cut me a check.

I’m just disgusted with this whole program. Yes, I love the car I picked out, but I’m about ready to tear my hair out.

By: Shawn S.

Shawn S. — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 04:29:48 +0000

BTW number should read (866) CAR-7891. not …7861.

By: Shawn S.

Shawn S. — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 04:27:54 +0000

I have paid the dealer all the money around 25k. He has my title for the clunker as of july 31. I have the paper work saying that all the money is paid on july 31. The car is in his lot but will not release it till getting the approval for the CARS rebate. I will report him on the number but like everybody said Idont want to lose the 4.5k.

By: Indy

Indy — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 00:58:04 +0000

oops…AG’s office should read OIG

By: Indy

Indy — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 00:56:04 +0000

@ Matthew…hopefully what will happen next is that your dealer will call you to come get your car (after receiving a call from the AG’s office). Good going…I hope you end up with your car!

By: Matthew Cullen

Matthew Cullen — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 00:33:35 +0000

I have called the OIG they are investigating. The OIG phone number I actually got to speak to a representative and now I have tracking info on the investigation. You can’t get much more up front than “yes they are not allowed to hold the vehicles” combined with “Here is your report number and here is your user key to access electronic information regarding your report” holy cow!!! doesn’t solve the fact that I’m not in my car yet, but it is progress. Even if it blows the deal on my hand selected car, I’ll be happy to cram it up the wazoo of the dealership. Did I mention its been weeks of “humming and hawing”. I’ve been more than patient, now its time to get all DoD with the DoT on the Dealer$h1T!!!

By: Indy

Indy — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 00:18:33 +0000

From Cars.gov:

We?ve heard that dealers are asking consumers to sign agreements with contingencies whenthey participate in the CARS program.
CONSUMERS SHOULD NOT SIGN CONTINGENCY AGREEMENTS TO PAY BACK THE DEALER SHOULD THE CARS CREDIT BE REJECTED.

We?ve also heard that dealers are asking consumers are asking consumers to keep their“clunker” until the deal is approved by NHTSA.

IF THE DEALER HAS THE NEW CAR IN STOCK, THE DEALER MUST ALLOW YOU TO TAKE POSSESSION OF THE NEW CAR BEFORE THE DEALER MAY SUBMIT THE CREDIT APPLICATION TO THE GOVERNMENT. PLEASE REPORT ANY DEALER TO NHTSA THAT DOES NOT ALLOW YOU TO TAKE POSSESSION OF A NEW CAR PURCHASED UNDER THE CARS PROGRAM. PLEASE CALL THE CARS HOTLINE AT (866) CAR-7861.

By: Matthew Cullen

Matthew Cullen — Wed, 12 Aug 2009 23:14:38 +0000

I’m on day 11 tmrw is day 12. I’m waiting on a great car, I’m very eager to get it. I started this process FOUR WEEKS ago. Shopped, test drove, decided on a cobalt, paid a deposit, the dealer obtained the car and once I saw it and gave it the okay the dealer to have had all my paperwork in by the 28th of July. I still don’t have the car mean while I have my clunker sitting on their lot while I’m paying insurance on it. I’m too afraid to cancel the insurance because that might void the rebate terms. My dealer says if I finance the difference of the rebate I could have the car today. For the same reason the dealer doesn’t want to give me the car I don’t want to pay the difference on a process they may screw up, stop processing all together, OR make a claim that it wasn’t approved mean while they pocket the 4500. How am I to know? this is incredibly frustrating and when I call the cars.gov phone line…i don’t even get a recorded message anymore…….

By: Indy

Indy — Wed, 12 Aug 2009 23:12:30 +0000

@ Carrie…totally understandable. Perhaps your dealer will be advised of the clarifications thru another avenue, and call you to come get your car. Whatever happens, if he later asks you to pay the 4500 (or return the car), keep in mind that you probably have a good case against him.

By: Carrie

Carrie — Wed, 12 Aug 2009 21:46:48 +0000

@ Indy, Thank you for the clarifications. Like Ivan, I am not willing to lose the deal if I upset the balance, as I am about 8 business days in, waiting for an approval. I feel like if I try to force the dealer’s hand, he can sell my car out from under me, deal or no deal, since I have not paid in full.

And with a contract that says I will reimburse the dealer, who is to say that the dealer won’t come back later and say “yes, we got the approval, but not the money, so come pay the money” and get their $4500 twice.

I will try to be patient.

By: Indy

Indy — Wed, 12 Aug 2009 21:25:47 +0000

@ Crazy Ivan…report this dealer AFTER you have your car. See how he likes having to explain why he shouldn’t be fined $15,000 for each violation.